Wednesday, August 20, 2008

The Atheist Starter Kit by Ray Comfort

If you are a beginner atheist, there's a belief system you should embrace and a language you should learn, or you will find yourself in trouble. Here are ten suggestions for the novice:

1. Whenever you are presented with credible evidence for God's existence, call it a "straw man argument," or "circular reasoning." If something is quoted from somewhere, label it "quote mining."

2. When a Christian says that creation proves that there is a Creator, dismiss such common sense by saying "That's just the old watchmaker argument."

3. When you hear that you have everything to gain and nothing to lose (the pleasures of Heaven, and the endurance of Hell) by obeying the Gospel, say "That's just the old 'Pascal wager.'"

4. You can also deal with the "whoever looks on a woman to lust for her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart," by saying that there is no evidence that Jesus existed. None.

5. Believe that the Bible is full of mistakes, and actually says things like the world is flat. Do not read it for yourself. That is a big mistake. Instead, read, believe, and imitate Richard Dawkins. Learn and practice the use of big words. "Megalo-maniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" is a good phrase to learn.

6. Say that you were once a genuine Christian, and that you found it to be false. (The cool thing about being an atheist is that you can lie through your teeth, because you believe that are no moral absolutes.) Additionally, if a Christian points out that this is impossible (simply due to the very definition of Christianity as one who knows the Lord), just reply "That's the 'no true Scotsman fallacy.'" PLEASE NOTE: It cannot be overly emphasized how learning and using these little phrases can help you feel secure in dismissing common sense.

7. Believe that nothing is 100% certain, except the theory of Darwinian evolution. Do not question it. Believe with all of your heart that there is credible scientific evidence for species-to-species transitional forms. When you make any argument, pat yourself on the back by concluding with "Man, are you busted!" That will make you feel good about yourself.

8. Deal with the threat of eternal punishment by saying that you don't believe in the existence of Hell. Then convince yourself that because you don't believe in something, it therefore doesn't exist. Don't follow that logic onto a railway line and an oncoming train.

9. Blame Christianity for the atrocities of the Roman Catholic church--when it tortured Christians through the Spanish Inquisition, imprisoned Galileo for his beliefs, or when it murdered Moslems in the Crusades.

10. Finally, keep in fellowship with other like-minded atheists who believe as you believe, and encourage each other in your beliefs. Build up your faith. Never doubt for a moment. Remember, the key to atheism is to be unreasonable. Fall back on that when you feel threatened. Think shallow, and keep telling yourself that you are intelligent. Remember, an atheist is someone who pretends there is no God.

(Written by Ray Comfort - read more at his blog http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/)

38 Comments:

IgniteMe said...

More simple views brought to you by the guy that gave the world the "intelligent design of a banana"... Which if he had done his homework would have revealed that the Cavendish banana is a manufactured mutant crop bred for the purpose of replacing the Gros Michel which was susceptible to Panama Wilt disease... Pray tell, Ray, how exactly was the seedless watermelon intelligently designed? Or please, elaborate on why god created the Apple, Cuban Red, Blue Java, Lady Finger, Orinoco, Popoulu, Valery & Williams bananas if he had gotten it right to begin with...?

TheEO said...

Ray Comforts blog is a scam. He is just taking the front bottom fluid.

God would never create a creature so stupid and inept.

Servant of the Most High said...

Ray Comfort is a man. By definition he is not perfect. That said, why should anyone place the validity of Christianity on the character or speech of one man? The comments made so far, focus on the messenger and not the message, a common technique of skeptics.

IgniteMe said...

Sorry Servant - It IS the message that I have a problem with here. Ray (and now you) are only bringing yourselves into the issue by writing such inanities. Even should your claims of your fairy wish-granter be true - I still have a huge problem with a god that says in effect: "Serve, worship and love me or else I'll torture you for all eternity." How is that any better than a rapist pointing a gun at your head?

Oh, and I really don't think I like the idea of the racist megalomaniacal idea that you see yourselves as kings and queens. Kings and queens of who? Brown people and other undesirables? The idea that xtians and muslims want to RULE everyone else (and think it's their right, to boot) is proof positive of the illness of your message.

IgniteMe

Drew said...

IgniteMe:
You have no idea what true Christianity is. God is not threatening us with eternal punishment. Rather, he is warning us of the wrath to come. Hell was created for satan and his demons. Not for humans. God is warning us not to follow after satan and all that he has to offer. If we follow satan long enough, we will follow him straight into hell. Who has your allegiance? God, or satan? If you say yourself then you are following the footsteps satan who is full of pride and resisted his creator. It is not "Do this or be punished" it is "Hey look out, your going the wrong way. Let me help you out!"

Leonard said...

Andy,

would you please edit this bonehead igniteme's message? For him to come here and write an x instead of Christ in Christian is just the epitome of disrespect. Not to mention his tired non-sensical, asinine claims and statements are nothing more the boring tripe spewed day in and day out by those of his ilk.

IgniteMe said...

I just love how my sincerity and lack of knowledge on this subject is questioned. Sir, you know me not! I was a devoted brainwashee for a full twenty-three years. From the age of seven to thirty I was a devotee... What? You think I just came to my conclusions overnight? You have no idea the struggles that I went through agonizing over the implications of this or that aspect of xtianity! Years spent on my knees crying out to someone who was never even there and I'm not sincere?! It's all too easy to dismiss someone if you doubt their convictions - But why not at least find out the truth of someone before you speak?

Haven't you even considered the significance of the realities of what you say? God created satan? Really? So god created a being that he knew full well would bring suffering and torment to billions of lives?! And you say this with a straight face as if Satan has some kind of powers to oppose the almighty hand of god? Really?! So god is all powerful - but he's not.... God is all-knowing - but not really... Seriously guys, I have no ill will towards anyone. I just want to you to actually face yourselves - and that mirror is me. I've lived it!

PS - When I write the words god, satan, xtianity, muslim or whatever phrase that I don't capitalize - It's not that I'm not going out of my way trying to disrespect - I'm just not going to give false respect...

IgniteMe

Andy said...

Well I do not believe in censorship I will however take down posts with an overage of ad hominem and pejorative comments.

Igniteme you have proved Ray's point number 6 very well. No Christian I have ever met was or "brainwashed". Maybe you were a Mormon or a Muslim, but Christianity requires that your faith can be tested to be trusted.

Yes I have considered what it means that God created everything. That God allows certain things which we might consider evil. Who are you to be the judge of what is good and bad? If God seeks to do it for His own Glory and Purposes then you have no right to judge what He does or has done. God is all knowing and all powerful. However He has set up rules that He cannot do. He cannot sin, go against His nature, etc.

The mirror you need is the 10 Commandments, maybe you will see why God would send unregenerate God -haters to Hell. That is what everyone is before the Grace of God is applied to them.

I find it interesting, so I have given you the answers to your implications Igniteme, but I think your hatred of God and those who follow Him might blind you so much that you will not look at the light, then again maybe it is because you are like me when I was an Atheist you just love your sin.

anythingbutlukewarm said...

I~
It is such a blessing that God is so patient! He wants YOU and will want you no matter how much you resist Him. To the ends of the earth He wants a relationship with you, where you rely completely on Him for everything. You haven't done that yet, so your prideful 23 years as a Mormon have been a waste of time, spiritually as least. You can run from him for your whole lifetime but it doesn't change who He is. He made you just like he did all those tons of varieties of banannas you listed, just like the mountains, the sunset, a newborn baby, he made it ALL. Whatever happened to you that made you so angry and bitter and resentful you need to re-examine and ask yourself why you tend to turn away from God rather than towards Him. Did you lose yourself or someone else who you loved and treasured? What were these struggles that cost you the immense joy of resting in God's hand? It has to be that deep of a hurt to distort the truth of God with such passion. Have you really been on your knees, humbled before God, asking for his mercy and his comfort? It is not just a good "feeling" it is His comfort amidst anguish. Have you pleaded with Him to change you and make you repulsed by sin? Or were you simply angry, demanding that things go your way, for you to feel better? God knows the depth of your hurting because He has lost you! -One He loves so intimately who will deny, defy and run from His love, mercy and grasp. Do a study on the book of Job - real Christians can take on burdens beyond measure because God only wants genuine worship, not just someone who goes thru the motions of a being a so-called "Christian". You were tested and failed - so try again. The name you choose to blog under says it all friend. But until your last breath you are not beyond God's grasp. I will pray for you every day and hope you step back from where you are at and take another look at your relationship with God. I was duped by religion too - it just made me seek after the truth of God even more agressively. Don't just wallow in being angry wearing the apathetic garmet of "atheism". Don't write off God just because religions and men are deceitful, prideful and greedy. Pray to "get" God's word, read it, ask to be humbled completely and see how you fit into God's plan. You and I are in the Bible more than you know friend- can't you see how many people who resisted God came to be used by Him in extraordinary ways? I pray you change your heart, your perspective and your blog name to something like say...Paul. Proof that you are wrestling with your soul is the obvious fact you are hanging out at a Christian evangelists blogsite. Pursue the truth of God with a critical, but open mind. Read the Bible and maybe A Case for Christ, written by atheist lawyer turned Christian - Lee Strobel. It all rests on whether the Bible is true or not. No other book, no other God. Don't be fooled by either extreme - false religion or atheism. Peace and wisdom to you~
~J

Drew said...

IgniteMe:
Sir, I don't know who you are or where you come from. I am merely trying to point out your mis-understanding of Christianity that I believe both Christians and non-Christians have. You experience is like many other people who become frustrated with a religion and not embrace a relationship with Christ.

As for satan opposing God, the ability to do something doesn't guarantee that you use the ability. It is only by the grace of God satan was created. It is also by His grace that we are created. Everything that He created is for His good pleasure. If His creation chooses to rebel, then they are opposing the Creator. How can two walk together unless they agree? We can not walk with God and still oppose Him. What ruler would allow a self-proclaimed enemy into his kingdom? This is why hell exists; complete detachment from God!

As for your disrespect for the divine: your respect for other people should compel you to do what is right. Everybody screams "tolerance" but to the Christian there is none given. Out of respect for the beliefs of the blogger, along with other commenters on this blog, you should not deface our namesake (Christianity) anymore than I will not deface another religion or belief system. It is mere human respect that I ask for.

IgniteMe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
IgniteMe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
IgniteMe said...

I'm replying to three comments - I'll post each separately...

Andy,

Point #6? Shouldn't you censor yourself from Ad Hominems? I'm not a practicing liar and I don't approve of dishonesty unless there is a greater good to be accomplished. That said - That's a pretty cheap shot to imply that I'm a liar just because I'm also an atheist. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because some christians are liars & racist bigots does not mean that all christians are liars & bigots.

How can you know if other christians are or are not brainwashed if you yourself are brainwashed? Maybe brainwashed isn't the right word to use - perhaps indoctrinated is better? So no, I'm not a liar, nor a muslim - nor a mormon - I was baptized at the age of seven as a southern baptist. I had been "indoctrinated" since before I could even speak - So perhaps I'd been a christian even longer than 23 years...

Who am I to judge? If god gave me us all brains - how can you expect that it's a sin to forgo its use?

And Honestly - I don't hate christians or the god that's not there... I'll tell you what I do hate, though: Willful ignorance! If you're ignorant and you are asking questions HONESTLY - then I have no problems with you. I was that man myself. But if you're too afraid or shallow to own up to testable truth when you see it - blinding yourself from the obvious - then you are just another coward with hardly any redeemable qualities.

Now on to this: Why are there TWO sets of ten commandments in the bible? God didn't get it the first time? Didn't he know that there were calf worshipers at the base of the mountain? I thought he never changed his mind, right?

IgniteMe said...

Dear anythingbutlukewarm:

First off, I'd have to say that you are the kind of christian that exemplifies what it means to be a follower of christ. You have obviously studied the words of jesus and have taken them to heart. And while I may still think you are misguided in alot of small ways - at least I can say that you have gotten the most important things right. I can tell that you really do care about people and their problems - which is heads and shoulders above most christians that I've ever met!

Three people in as many months that were close christian friends of mine said that I was living the life of Job. (My name IS Paul BTW) Though, who here is going to escape tragedy? Not even one of us. I don't think that my experiences are anything special - to say otherwise would be to diminish the lives of countless others that have suffered... But honestly - my deconversion had absolutely nothing to do with my emotional turmoil - It was just the simple truths that were staring me in the face that got to me - day after day... The bible did get that part right - The truth set me free! And there ARE truths to be found in the bible... But in the end - it's just a book and sometimes it right, and sometimes it's wrong. Does anyone in your family work on the sabbath? Should you kill them for it? And if god had to make a new covenant then he obviously got the first one wrong. Why should god punish me for how he made me? He made me imperfect - but I need to suffer because of that imperfection? And what about his sacrifice? If he paid for my sins why should our suffering be ongoing? It's either paid or it's not.

I could tell you all day and night that my cries to god were true - but to the willfully ignorant - I would never be able to convince them of my sincerity... Perhaps you would believe me, though.

IgniteMe said...

Drew,

I'll spell out christian for YOU and even leonard the childish name caller. But I'll not capitalize it as then I'd have to start capitalizing everyone's religion...

You know, I hear that christians are persecuted all the time... But where? Within one square mile of my home there are EIGHT churches (all different denominations) and just one convenience store... I see jesus' unity prayer (Jn. 17:21-23) is really working out... ;)

There are approximately 25 some odd christian channels on my TV and not even one devoted to atheism. There are secular channels, too - but even they run christian programming on Sundays. I have to pay extra to get the science channel... And those secular channels are simply playing to what the market wants - which is 80% christian in this country! An 80% that is also reflected in the prison population, as well...

When was the last time someone protested a christian's funeral for being heterosexual?

I became LESS evil when I became an atheist because I was not starting out with the premise that there was something wrong with me to begin with. As a christian, I would sin and feel really, really guilty but I didn't change because I WAS A SINNER and DESERVED punishment. In addition, I had a get out of jail free card every Sunday morning! Mentally, I became what I thought that I was. What I had been told I was... As an atheist I am free to choose who I want to be. And I choose to be as moral as I can... Now – please do not get me wrong... As I posted earlier – Correlation does not imply causation. I've met some real nitwit amoral atheists as well.

You're saying that it was through god's grace that satan was created? So, in effect, evil MUST exist in order for there to be a greater good? Is god playing a numbers game where the ends justify the means? Do you not see what is logically wrong with that?

~ IgniteMe

Luci said...

First and foremost:

I take offense by the claim that Atheists don't believe in moral absolutes. Morality is not reserved for believers, if it was, the world would not be in the sorry state it is, as Christians make 33% of the world population, Muslims 19.6%, Hindus 13.4% and atheists are a mere 2.5%.

(http://www.missionfrontiers.org/)

There a larger percentage of Christians in US jails than atheists, does it say anything to you about the morals and values of Christians versus Atheists?

I have been a Christian for most of my life. For more than 20 years I have been a born again believer, I was baptized as a child, and as an adult I decided to be baptized again, as I was searching for truth and wanted to be part of God's Kingdom.

In my quest for the truth I did a lot of soul searching as well as study. I studied the various religions, their origins and I studied the Bible.

I did not "think shallow" about Christianity. I honestly wanted the Bible to be God's word, I wanted it all to be true.

After much soul searching I could not believe any more. The more I studied, the more disillusioned I became.

I came to the conclusion that the Bible is nothing more than a very old book written by humans, that most of the stories were based on old myths of other religions, and the rest nothing more than lies.

I do not "pretend" that there is no God. If God showed him or herself to me, I would have still have been a believer.

I am not so arrogant as to believe that the whole universe was created just for me.

Atheism is rooted in reason, while religion is based on emotion and fear.

I hope this post does not get deleted as I saw some of Igniteme's post were.

Luce

IgniteMe said...

No - Luci - I deleted those comments myself as I was getting "submit happy" by accident... Wrong formatting and hit submit instead of preview. Though I still found some mistakes in the text of some of my other posts. I was tired and crosseyed... What can I say? :P

Luci said...

Thank you, Igniteme.

My apologies

Luce

Andy said...

Luci,

I find your post very interesting thanks for taking the time to come and share. First we need to make a distinction. If someone were to claim to be an Atheist but believed in God and performed actions that showed they did believe in God, could we honestly call them an Atheist? The answer has to be a resounding NO. Just because people make the claim does not mean they are. If I claim to be a cow yet I speak you are going to do further examination to see if my claims are true. If someone claims to be a Christian and they do not follow Christ or his precepts then because Christianity has an objective standard (the Bible) we can easily dismiss that individual as a Christian. Furthermore if someone has not changed or become a new creature in Christ then we can again say that they are likely not a true Christian.

So when people tell me about growing up in Christianity, it has no merit. Jesus did not say that if you grow up in a Christian household you would be saved. No instead he said you must be born again (made a new creature). If you had been made a new creature then you could not go back to being the old creature you once were. That is the distinctive that many Christians are trying to make.

Now there are a lot of bad Churches with bad hermeneutics and poor theology. Some even believe in salvation by Baptism, however Jesus didnt. If you are not living new life in the kingdom of God then how do you know that you are in the kingdom of God. Many people profess and I think some even genuinely think they are Christian, yet there has never been a true "conversion" of the soul, if there was then they could have never left it. I know you may find this difficult, but if the all powerful God of the Universe draws you to him and changes your heart, you cannot get away from Him or that changed heart.

I have been an Atheist and at times I was Agnostic, because of the order of everything it seemed to me that there should be a God. When I decided to prove my “Christian” friends wrong and I honestly did the research, I came to the conclusion that Jesus was Lord and he required much of me. It was not easy for me to get to this point, being an Atheist is far easier because as one I could create my own “Moral Absolutes” and then adhere or not adhere to them at will. Submitting myself to a Holy, Perfect, Just and Loving God was far beyond anything I could do, it was the work of that God who turned me to Him. I believe He is calling those He has chosen, I pray that it is Luci and Igniteme.

Luci said...

Andy

Thank you for the reply.

I find the following interesting in your post:
1)
"If someone were to claim to be an Atheist but believed in God and performed actions that showed they did believe in God, could we honestly call them an Atheist?"

Atheists do not believe in any gods, Andy. Atheism means the absence of belief in deities. As a matter of fact, Christians believe in only one god more than atheists do, so you are partly atheists as well ;)

2)
"If someone claims to be a Christian and they do not follow Christ or his precepts then because Christianity has an objective standard (the Bible) we can easily dismiss that individual as a Christian."

What exactly do you mean by following Christ and his precepts? Are we talking about obeying the 10 commandments here?

Something about the commandments:
"Some historians... have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the [Egyptian] Book of the Dead (a.k.a. the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing... The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of Yahweh."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_Decalogue

3)
"So when people tell me about growing up in Christianity, it has no merit. Jesus did not say that if you grow up in a Christian household you would be saved. No instead he said you must be born again (made a new creature)."

I became born again as an adult, it was being "born again" that I felt the urge to study Christianity, and thus became an atheist.

4)
"When I decided to prove my “Christian” friends wrong and I honestly did the research, I came to the conclusion that Jesus was Lord and he required much of me. It was not easy for me to get to this point, being an Atheist is far easier because as one I could create my own “Moral Absolutes” and then adhere or not adhere to them at will."

What research are you talking about, Andy? Have you researched the origin of the Bible and Christianity?

Again; I am extremely offended that you equate "moral absolutes" to Christianity. Atheists do not create their own moral absolutes, if it was so the jails would be full of atheists, atheists would be the highest number of murderers, rapists, child molesters, thieves; you name it. The contrary is true, however.

5)
"Submitting myself to a Holy, Perfect, Just and Loving God was far beyond anything I could do, it was the work of that God who turned me to Him. I believe He is calling those He has chosen, I pray that it is Luci and Igniteme."

Let's talk about the "Holy, Perfect, Just and Loving God" you want me to submit to:

1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB:
God Kills 70,000 Men Over a Census

(God punishes David for ordering a census of his people.) "Yahweh spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men."

Deuteronomy 3:1-7 NLT:
Murder, Pillage, and Plunder

Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns."

1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT
Murder

"At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. "

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT:
Mass Murder and Human Sacrifice

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

Hosea 9:11-16 NLT:
Killing of babies

"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."

Deuteronomy 13:7-12:
Kill Followers of Other Religions

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."

Psalms 137:9 NAB:
Baby Bashing

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock."

I can go on and on and on ...

Luce

Oakmeyer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Oakmeyer said...

1. Whenever you are presented with credible evidence for nonexistence of gods, call them a liar or demon possessed. If something is quoted from somewhere, label it "out of context"

2. When an atheist says that seeming design is a byproduct of natural selection, dismiss such common sense by saying "Evolution has been proved within species, but one kind cannot change into another."

3. When you hear that you have nothing to gain and everything to lose (a life of servitude to non-existent gods, and the insufferable boring sermons) by obeying the Gospel, say "That's just the old 'Sinful flesh.'"

4. You can also deal with the "gospels were written 65 to 110 years after the supposed life of Jesus," by saying that there is ample evidence that Jesus existed. Because there once really was a town called Nazareth.

5. Believe that the Bible is never wrong, and actually says credible things about science. Do not read it for yourself. That is a big mistake. Instead, read, believe, and imitate your pastor. Learn and practice the use of big words. "Bonehead, ilk, asinine boring tripe" is a good phrase to learn.

6. Say that you were once a genuine Atheist, and that you found it to be false. (The cool thing about being a Christian is that you can lie through your teeth, because you believe that are completely forgiven no matter what.) Additionally, if an Atheist points out that you are an atheist about all other gods as well (simply due to the very definition of atheism as one who denies the existence of gods), just remind yourself "I've felt His presence, so I know He's real!'" PLEASE NOTE: It cannot be overly emphasized how learning and using these little phrases can help you feel secure in dismissing common sense.

7. Believe that everything is 100% certain, except the theory of Darwinian evolution. Question it at every turn. Believe with all of your heart that there is absolutely no credible fossil evidence for species-to-species transitional forms. When you make any argument, pat yourself on the back by concluding with "Man, are you busted!" That will make you feel good about yourself.

8. Deal with the threat of eternal punishment by saying that "God doesn't send people to Hell, people choose to be separated from God.". Then convince yourself that because you have faith in something, it therefore MUST exist. Follow that logic into denying your children life-saving medical care because "God will surely heal them because two or more are gathered in His name, AMEN!"

9. Blame Atheism for the atrocities of the entire 20th century--when it persecuted Christians in Russia, imprisoned and gassed the Jews, or when it murdered 1.7 million in Cambodia.

10. Finally, keep in fellowship with other like-minded Christians who believe as you believe, and encourage each other in your beliefs. Build up your faith. Never doubt for a moment. Remember, the key to Christianity is to be a follower. Fall back on that when you feel threatened. Think shallow, and keep telling yourself that you are a sheep. Remember, an Christian is someone who pretends there is a God.

Andy said...

Oakmeyer,

Wow you are original.....

By the way I will not tolerate your posts and whatever weird ideas you have if they are going to be crude. I will delete them. So unless you have something reasonable to say go take your insulting ad hominem over to the Rational Response Squad they will invite your insults of Christianity and Jesus with open arms..........

Andy said...

Just so everyone knows Oakmeyer posted three items one he deleted on that I left and an absolutely digusting story of his own fantasies which I deleted permanently.

Andy said...

Igniteme,

Christians are persecuted in China, India, North Korea and other Atheist and non Christian countries around the world. Right here in good ole America I have personally seen Christians arrested for sharing their faith, they have lost children to the state and been forced to teach their children things which go against their moral ethics. I am not sure that is really persecution in America compared to what goes on in say China where Christians are hunted and then jailed or killed for their faith.

God created one of his most beautiful angels, it was Lucifer, but that angel had one thought that he could become like god, and God in his anger cast him and 1/3 of the angels to hell forever. Isaiah 14:3-20

Was that God's fault? I think not, if he gives you free will you fault him for evil, if he takes away free will you fault him for being a controller..... you have set it up so the God who gave you life will lose according to your standard that you imposed on Him. And whose to say your standard is correct?

Andy said...

Luce,

Thanks for your post lets review a few points.

Atheism is the absense of faith. I have heard the one more god line used by other Atheists and it does not hold water, sounds funny but has no relevant meaning whatsoever. My point was people "claim" to be all kinds of things including Christians but we must examine them to see if what they are saying is true.

Yes that they believe that Jesus is Lord and God converts them becoming new creatures in Christ they will long to follow Christ and His commands.... will they be perfect nope but anyone who claims to be a Christian and murders people outright is not a Christian. So there is a standard by which we JUDGE one another rightly.

The 10 commandments did not come from the book of the dead, besides the Bible the commandments are written on every persons heart inluding yours. And which commandment do you not like? You are ok with murder, lying, stealing or is it adultery that you think is ok? Please enlighten me on how you come to your moral absolutes and the why for each one. Do all Atheists adhere to them, what do we do with those who oppose your morals? Please again list your morals for us. You said Atheists do not create their own moral absolutes so then who creates them for the Atheists? Funny because no two Atheists I have ever met can agree on their own Morals so they must be creating their own.

If you became born again Luce you would be a new creature in Christ.......uh you might want to go check 2 Corinthians 13:5

The research I did was on the Bible its historical, archaelogical, veritological, etc. value. The places and the people it describes are accurate, people died for things they saw like the resurrection. Their is an axiomatic nature to the Bible that you do not find anywhere. I personally was trying to prove that Jesus was not Lord, and the Bible proved otherwise, this man Jesus claimed to be God so he was either a Liar, a Lunatic or he was LORD. It did not take long to see that a "good" man like Jesus was neither a liar or a lunatic but he was Lord John 10:30,33. And that I had been like the clay to the potter shaking my fists at him and spitting at the sun as an Atheist. I knew I would have to humble myself before Him as you know one day you will have to do. He changed me entirely and not just my actions and desires but made me a different person. My experience however does not make it true, only the facts coupled with that experience can give any validation. The facts are there, you did not evolve from mud randomly, you were created for His purpose, not your purpose.

You read the Bible with a hermeneutic that is trying to prove that God is mean, yet you do not show the outcomes of anything you listed. Is God wrong to kill someone like Hitler? When does His morality allow him to execute judgement? Again you are not an Atheist Luce you are playing god yourself and so the difference between you and I is really this, I believe there is a God who makes the rules and you believe you can be like god and created the rules for yourself and everyone around you. Same lie Satan has always told it is the oldest one in the "Book" and you bought it hook line and sinker.

Luci said...

Andy

Re faith: It's a religious expression that is also used for some secular meanings. I have "faith" in my husband and my children, that they love me; not a drop of religion here.
Atheism has nothing to do with faith, only the absence of belief in deities.

Re "Yes that they believe that Jesus is Lord and God converts them becoming new creatures in Christ they will long to follow Christ and His commands."

You have to realize there is no tangible proof that the Jesus person in the Bible is anyone supernatural?

The thing with atheism is that we require evidence. We do not follow or believe blindly. No evidence, no faith. I can thus have faith in the love of my husband and children as it has been proven over and over.

Re "The 10 commandments did not come from the book of the dead, besides the Bible the commandments are written on every persons heart inluding yours. And which commandment do you not like? You are ok with murder, lying, stealing or is it adultery that you think is ok? Please enlighten me on how you come to your moral absolutes and the why for each one."

Hasn't it long been proven to anyone with a brain that morality does not come from religion? Even dolphins assist fellow pod members, spiders help each other, dogs save human lives; what makes morality so special for believers?

Moral truth or justification is relative to a culture or society.
I do not believe what the Biblical God did was morally acceptable, but apparently you have no problem with the bashing of babies' heads or the killing of thousands of innocent people, the raping of women or slavery? I do not, and refuse to worship anyone with those kinds of morals, and yet you tell me we have no morals? I do what is socially acceptable, just like tribes do who have never heard of Christianity.

Morality comes exclusively from evolution.

"Humans evolved to have a sense of fair-mindedness. A similar tendency can be seen in the way many apes treat each other. The reason for fair-mindedness is that pre-humans and early humans lived in hunter-gatherer societies in which each individual depended on the generosity and cooperation of others in the group. The groups that treated each other best were most likely to survive and propagate their "benevolence genes." Morality, then, is simply society's codification of this genetic tendency towards benevolence. Incidentally, our hunter-gatherer origins also explain our tendency towards tribalism/nationalism, and our often irrational xenophobia - competition between groups for scarce resources."
(The last paragraph taken verbatim from here: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/585708)

Re "Same lie Satan has always told it is the oldest one in the "Book" and you bought it hook line and sinker."

Why did your Biblical God have to create Satan? Because without Satan no one would need a God, or a redeemer. And you fell for a mythical creature, hook, line and sinker.

Luce

(I see you did not address any of the verses I quoted).

Oakmeyer said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Luci said...

Oakmeyer

You should stop visiting the priests, their behavior is rubbing off on you

:p

Luce

Oakmeyer said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
IgniteMe said...

Honestly Andy -

I think you think you're persecuted because all your contemporaries say that you are. Insofar as someone you know was forced to teach their children things that go against their ethics - What was it? Sex education? Evolution? Last I heard, parents have every right to home-school their children in America... I'll not comment on China as I don't live there and I (nor you) really have any clue about their situation.

Re: Angels and Lucifer - You have ZERO proof of these supposed events. Why are you speaking as if they were real? But in trying to suppose something you have to make certain assumptions about the qualities of god - And those very assumptions are irrational... If god can predict any outcome (1st assumption) and god can change any outcome (2nd assumption) where is my free will? Seriously. You actually have to go home, sit down and actually THINK about this stuff. Don't just parrot back something someone once told you... If you are really interested in finding the truth of something, you cannot willfully ignore evidence. It's intellectually dishonest and you're only shortchanging your own quality of life. I'll not give you my answers on my question above about "where is my free will?" - as me just telling you the answers doesn't really help you... You need to work it out for yourself.

In response to your reply to Luci... "(There)Their is an axiomatic nature to the Bible that you do not find anywhere." I can see that you're making two assumptions here: (1): There really are such things as axioms (a self-evident truth that requires no proof.) and (2): Nowhere else in the entire universe can you find truth.

I say that axioms exist only in our minds... What is "apparent" truth may not be so truthful after you do some thought and careful research. On the face of it, the "Golden Rule" sounds pretty convincing... But what if you're a masochist and enjoy pain? For those people it would NOT be a good thing to treat people as they like to be treated...! Hence, the relative nature of things... So you might say that one of my axioms is that the universe and therefore truth is "relative" - to which I'd reply that it's still not a truth that requires no evidence. We've found out about the relative nature of things through research and repeatability.

On your second assumption about truth beyond the bible: Do I REALLY need to explain this? If you cannot see that there may be some truth out there beyond your book - then you seriously need to see if you haven't been "indoctrinated"....

Prodigal said...

Igniteme,

in response to this question:

"where is my free will? Seriously"

I understand that you believe that you have a free will. But let me ask you this; how free is it really? Every decision you make as a volitional being is influenced in some way by either an enviromental factor(s) or a pre-existing, learned taste or skill. The "free" part of free will would imply that you approach every choice in life with an absolute clear mind; with no influences or previous experiences that might cloud your decision making capabilities whatsoever. Your defense of your Godless beliefs makes this evident to the extreme. If your will is truley free, then you would have had the choice of perfection in life; that is to be sinless. Now I think that you, and virtually everyone here, can agree that no one is perfect, agreed?

Secondly, what are the major drawbacks to Christianity that you have an issue with? The existance of evil? Suffering? etc. . . Why not discuss these things with people who will give you a genuine bible based answer to your questions? If you don't feel like this is the place, please seek out a believer to help.

Drew said...

Igniteme:
First I would like to say I am only replying to the post addressed to me. I did not read any of the other posts due to time. Also, I am sorry for the late timing of my reply.

Thank you for at least showing some respect for my beliefs. As far as capitalizing, it is just good grammer.

Christian persecuation is happen all over the place. Primarily in Islamic and athiestc nations. Unfortunaly for you more so in athiestic nations. Some Islamic nations do have some sort of freedom of religions. It is those darn anti-conversion laws that get you. I would agree with you, Christ's prayer was not answered right away. But it will be in the end.

I am not sure what you are getting at with the television stations. Are you refering to possible athiestic purecution? There is such a liberal biased in most programing on television I would hardly call it 80% Christian. It is more like culture Christian than anything else.

I never agreed with protesting at funerals for homosexuals. But you will never see protesters at a hetersexual's funeral becuase that is normal behavior.

Most people are unaware of the immorlity of there soul. God points out us being out of line with His will and shows us a way to make it better. We only deserve punishment becuase of who we follow: satan. Most athiests morality is barrowed from the morality of the society around them. Your morality stems from Chritianity. It is borrowed. What is your morality if you take out every Christian moral out of your beliefs?

Again you are missing the point. God is pre-existing. When He exsited only His will existed. When He created another being with a free will, the potential for there to be conflict greatly increased. When one has a different point of view than God, they are going against God's will. Can two walk togehter and not agree? Satan was created through grace. Evil only exists when we walk contrary to God's will. It is not the "ends justify the means". It is reality.

IgniteMe said...

Two people that I'm responding to here:

Prodigal,

While science is still inconclusive as to whether or not individuals are truly free in the strictest sense; that's not the point. The point is that the rules by which your bible lay out the case for god logically excludes it. If god "sees all" - even the future. And. IF that were true, then there must be something discretely and actually there to determine in the future; a something “there” to see. Hence, a predetermined future. Therefore, zero free will. And thus, "choosing" god's will for your life is a lie.

What are the major drawbacks of christianity? Did you not read my posts above? I could go on at length on this question, but my previous answers should suffice in satisfying your curiosity…

Drew,

Please, try not to lecture me on my grammer (grammar). I've been overtly kind by not calling you out on yours…

Like I said before, there IS some truth to be found in the bible, as well as many, many errors; but it is most certainly NOT the definitive guide on morality…! Dashing babies against rocks, drowning children in rivers, wholesale murder of men, women, children, babies and animals… Please, tell me you recognize that these are immoral!

Sorry, but “god is pre-existing” just doesn’t cut it… It is something that cannot be proven, and even more importantly, is not something that can even be reasonably expected. To try and explain a complex universe with an even more complicated god is just a simple dodge on the question. It’s like saying apples exist because there are such things as oranges.

Now, believe me when I say, I know what you’re going through. I understand what it’s like when one part of the story matches up with another part and it seems to be true simply because they correlate... I was there. I lived it. I ate and drank christianity day and night, year after year… It wasn’t until I had the courage to step out of my self-induced bubble and see the world around me without my god goggles on did I realize how far I’d been seduced. It’s simply impossible to have non-biased opinions without understanding the arguments of your adversary. And while you may see me as an immorally evil atheist, we are actually on the same side - the human side. If I did not care about you or the future of humanity, I wouldn’t be here…

Regards,

IgniteMe

Prodigal said...

"And thus, "choosing" god's will for your life is a lie."

Well, I see your point. But let us by no means dismiss this situation without hearing the other side.

The bible teaches that there is one God. That God is totally holy, righteous, and just. It also teaches as you have pointed out, that God is soverign and has a plan or will. The bible is clear in saying that God's perfect plan will ultimatley come to fruition. In this the bible talks about the foreknowledge and predestination of God. God does know who will be saved and who won't: That is becuase He chooses! This is why those who are Christians cannot attribute their salvation to themselves.
One person put it this way: "Christian conversion is not the result of human persuasion, but is a manifestation of God's grace."

The concept of free will is indeed a secular concept: that is, it cannot be reconciled with scripture. Most come to this conclusion after having come to a belief in Christ for some time. Your ahead of the curve. This understandably raises many tough but answerable questions in regards to the soverignty of God. To begin to understand the doctrine of predestination you must have familiarity with the essential Christian doctrines, which according to your previous comment you have.

"God created satan? Really? So god created a being that he knew full well would bring suffering and torment to billions of lives?!"

Let me address evil (and consequently satan and sin) as a whole:

So God is holy, perfect, without blemish, and He is totally in control of all things. We know that He created everything and that nothing transpires without His ordination; that is He ultimately allows all things to come to pass. We must first recognize that God Himself did not create evil, but the potential for evil. This may seem like a fine line, but it isn't. It is the same line that separates the Creator from the created. Just as He created angels with the ability to choose good or evil, He gave us this choice in the person of Adam, mankind's representitive. We are by definition volitional beings who make choices constantly. Unfortunately Adam choice to sin created in us a curse, which is the sin nature we all bear.

God uses evil for good. For instance, look at the story of Joseph and his brothers: Joseph's father loved him, gave him a multicolored coat, his brothers sold him into slavery, but ultimately Joseph became the second in charge in Egypt, during the famine his brothers came to Egypt to buy food, and Joseph revealed himself as their brother, Joseph forgave his brothers immediately even though he could have had them killed. Do you remember what Joseph said to his brothers? "What you meant for evil God meant for good." God used the sin of Joseph's brothers to eventually save Joseph's family from famine. There are countless circumstances in life that we can look back and see God using evil to complete His good purpose. He always does this without ever condoning it, after all He is perfect.

So why does God allow evil to exist? Well look at it this way: Those who have given their life to Christ, have repented of their sin, and have openly confessed to follow Him, have been saved. Jesus says that "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one can get to the Father but by me." These individuals, called Christians, have been given eternal life, free from the penalty of God's just wrath; the penalty that all people deserve. Christians will experience the grace and mercy of God in its fullness in heaven. To understand this, let me pose to you a metaphor:
Lets say you were driving at 100mph on the highway. There are no speed limit signs anywhere and no one has ever given you any inclination that going over 65 mph is illegal. Would you understand that what you were doing is wrong? Now look at the law of God, the ten commandments. If we didn't have the ten commandments would we know that idolatry is wrong? Probably not. In the same way, Christians, the true believers, would not be able to appreciate the extent of God's grace and mercy if they were not intimately acquainted with the reality of evil. We live through it daily, the suffering, anguish, and pain are the converse of the grace, peace, and infinite love that God has for people. God has chosen to demonstrate His grace on this earth through the reality of evil. God chose to allow His son to be killed, and not only that, but while on the cross, God poured out His wrath on Him, the wrath that belonged to Christians. The Romans crucified Him, the Jews called for His blood, the people cheered, but what man meant for evil, God meant for good.

IgniteMe said...

http://www.boring3d.com/daily/03-18-03.jpg

IgniteMe said...

Sorry, this will have to suffice... Adios!

anon said...

When would Ray be begging for donation? I would love to be gullible and donate my whole chunk to him so that he can live comfortably....
His "belief" (note that I'm not pinpointing any religion here) is profitable...